Did the gods really exist?

First topic message reminder :

This question always used to haunt me since I had involved in various rituals and religious chores.
Sometimes I felt that all the theologies were the offsprings of the saints or great philosophers of times and ages. But sometimes I had a deep belief of their real existence. So what do u people really think of this troubling question?

devil wrote:I got it on the web. Six reasons to believe that god really exists..

Please check out this link to kno abt god's existence.
http://www.everystudent.com/features/isthere.html

I read that article but I couldn't quite agree at any of the facts presented over there. All the qrguments presented there are contestable...I will be explaining why these arguments are not valid...by the way being a devil yourself I guess you don't believe in god ...do you

Now.... how can you simply attribute all the goddamned wonders to god. It is simply an excuse..... and a reasoning that is very immature.

well I am much satisfied by the way in which the debate is goin on. However n whatever be the belief on which each debator has stand on, they lack to find a way in which all of their standings has a good explanation.
For example: Nihilism means everything start from nothing and hinduism statifies that god is the creator of everything. Nihilism has no good explanation for whereabout of the enery for which contradicts the conservation of energy and hinduism have no good explanation for the physical existence of the god.
This was the same reason for which there had been a great dispute among the atheists and theists. But my question is what can be the core idea that can support the whole old and evergrowing new concepts. With this I would like to end this debate topic I would like all of the debator and observers to take a new step in finding the real and ultimate concept.

Nastik= can u prove where ur god exist?
Astik= can u prove where god doesn't exist?

Razor, I do not think Nihilism would want to explain god because Nihilism would mean an out straight rejection of anything related to 'god'. The word won't even matter to a nihilist and a nihilist as such doesn't care to explain anything about the word or the system. It simply won't matter.
In fact, there is no need of a debate. The best thing would be to remain indifferent and carefree.

There can be no real or ultimate concept. In fact, every concept goes wrong. Whatever I myself bluffed till now and am bluffing is all bullshit and yet life goes on bluffing. This topic will not end no matter what theory comes up.. what concept evolves... whatever happens. There is no new step that can ever come close to the answer because the answer lies in indifference and is attainable by the unquestioning mind.

And COFILTH... I am not sure what you are trying to mean...but is it an error.. I mean I have a doubt you got nastik and astik all wrong... and yet it doesn't matter!

eveningpolestar wrote:

devil wrote:I got it on the web. Six reasons to believe that god really exists..

Please check out this link to kno abt god's existence.
http://www.everystudent.com/features/isthere.html

I read that article but I couldn't quite agree at any of the facts presented over there. All the qrguments presented there are contestable...I will be explaining why these arguments are not valid...by the way being a devil yourself I guess you don't believe in god ...do you

i think god and devil aint a creature like humans n animals...
god's just a positive feeling of heart n devil's jus negative....

thats why i named myself devil....full of negative feelings...

blazeofglory wrote:Razor, I do not think Nihilism would want to explain god because Nihilism would mean an out straight rejection of anything related to 'god'. The word won't even matter to a nihilist and a nihilist as such doesn't care to explain anything about the word or the system. It simply won't matter.
In fact, there is no need of a debate. The best thing would be to remain indifferent and carefree.

There can be no real or ultimate concept. In fact, every concept goes wrong. Whatever I myself bluffed till now and am bluffing is all bullshit and yet life goes on bluffing. This topic will not end no matter what theory comes up.. what concept evolves... whatever happens. There is no new step that can ever come close to the answer because the answer lies in indifference and is attainable by the unquestioning mind.

And COFILTH... I am not sure what you are trying to mean...but is it an error.. I mean I have a doubt you got nastik and astik all wrong... and yet it doesn't matter!

I don't know why u feel so upset about.
I don't know about u but if u don't move on the quest of finding the ultimate answer then how in earth would u define urself as a completely know everything person.
My fren then the dream u have in becoming the happy person with no question is questionable.

I am not at all upset. Moving on a quest...a never ending one.. could have made me upset.
I dont know anything... I dont know things as much as u do.
I don't want to know. Everybody's life and opinions are different. And dreams too.
Everything is questionable... and unquestionable too.

My friend the only suggestion I would like to give myself and all other living in the world is to find the purpose or life or create one.
Hope and Faith are two things that are the weapons for every mankind.

How much do we really know about ourselves so as to even dare to know GOD??. What do we really know about that being which looks through our eyes and listens through our ears, feels through our hearts and thinks through our minds??ON the superficial level, everyone claims it's ME, but what is this "me"?? beyond bones and blood?? who is it that dreams at night?? that subjectifies a perception?? Who is it really that is reading this text?? Can we really separate ourselves from our body?? is there a spirit???Who knows?? no one does, well except the ghosts, and they seldom post replies in forums.

So all we have are beliefs, quasi intellectual beliefs that can change anytime.However truth is always a constant. So , perhaps , rather than trying to know god, one should venture to know oneself.

Razor Blade... your suggestion could prove costly.

Hope is the worst of all evils that prolongs the torments of man. (Nietzsche i think)
Faith is another dangerous enemy. Faith disrupts the system. With faith rose Hitler.

VforVendetta,
On the whole I agree to what you have to say... but I need to...dissect and filter out what I agree and what I don't.

How much do we really know about ourselves so as to even dare to know GOD??.

What is "Dare" and where does it even come from? Does it reason fear? Does it show agony? Does it express anger? Or, is it mere mockery?

What do we really know about that being which looks through our eyes and listens through our ears, feels through our hearts and thinks through our minds??ON the superficial level, everyone claims it's ME, but what is this "me"?? beyond bones and blood?? who is it that dreams at night?? that subjectifies a perception?? Who is it really that is reading this text?? Can we really separate ourselves from our body?? is there a spirit???Who knows?? no one does, well except the ghosts, and they seldom post replies in forums.

"God" and "Me" are words that denote the super-being and the self.
The concept would be to attribute God as another self, an alter ego, to a higher position...something Nietzsche called "Superman", something man should reach out to become. A higher being categorized by enlightenment.
ME refers to the self that we know all about and the very self we, all our life, as a nature, are concerned about. The self we are set to groom.

knowledge is redundant..so is the quest to ... so-called overcoming ignorance.
The answer to "god" and "self" directs to mortality, immortality, rebirth.... and what not... and comes again... a chain of questions...as if through a nuclear fission.

Clever opinion leads nowhere.
The way we mold opinions... create them, bake them, alter them, personify them, alienate them. Its all futile. Not a single step nearer to what you call "truth". There is no truth.

So all we have are beliefs, quasi intellectual beliefs that can change anytime.However truth is always a constant. So , perhaps , rather than trying to know god, one should venture to know oneself.

How do you know whether truth is a constant or not? What else is constant? Is time constant? Is life constant?
One needn't venture anywhere. One needs to be. To feel. To be!

What is "Dare" and where does it even come from? Does it reason fear? Does it show agony? Does it express anger? Or, is it mere mockery?

Dare simply implies our tendency to try to run before being able to properly walk. it doesn't reason fear or agony or anger, but merely a sense of naiveness that people hold on to when dealing with such ultimate realities as god.

ME refers to the self that we know all about and the very self we, all our life, as a nature, are concerned about. The self we are set to groom.

the ME that you are refering to is merely a factual necessity , the concept of segregation via bodily boundaries , so that one may work efficiently as a unit in the human society. So the attributes you refer to such as "life", "the knowledge" are merely gained and didn't come with us from birth and wont continue after death. So what i am concerned about here is not what the self APPEARS to be but what the self IS.That which trancends birth and death . that which cannot be acquired nor released, that which truly is the substance of "my" existence, the ultimate ME-ness.

Clever opinion leads nowhere.
The way we mold opinions... create them, bake them, alter them, personify them, alienate them. Its all futile. Not a single step nearer to what you call "truth". There is no truth.

"clever opinion leads nowhere", really?if it didn't then it wouldn't justify being clever, now would it?? and by the way, opinions were never meant to know the truth , it's merely a personalized
view, a perception uniquely one's own, though not absolute , does represent a facet of the truth , no matter how convoluted.

and how can you be so sure that there is no truth?? Again , isn't that an opinion?? or am i to ignore it simply?Perhaps it would be better to say "There is no perception of the truth just yet".

How do you know whether truth is a constant or not? What else is constant? Is time constant? Is life constant?
One needn't venture anywhere. One needs to be. To feel. To be!

how could it not be?? How could such universe stand on its own without an order that is fixed and immutable? Now lets expand our horizon here, You ask if time is a constant. Now according to relativity ,passage of time depends upon the observer's frame of reference right??, Now although the time may not be constant in itself, this "nature" of time being relative is itself a constant. Life changes every second, but the "change" is itself a constant. You can't change change.

Well, it seems ultimate knowledge cannot be seeked but only experienced.but that is not to say that one can get high and be enlightened,experience is only meaningful when accompainied by awareness, BEING is only meaningful when accompanied with wisdom.

VforVendetta wrote:

What is "Dare" and where does it even come from? Does it reason fear? Does it show agony? Does it express anger? Or, is it mere mockery?

Dare simply implies our tendency to try to run before being able to properly walk. it doesn't reason fear or agony or anger, but merely a sense of naiveness that people hold on to when dealing with such ultimate realities as god.

ME refers to the self that we know all about and the very self we, all our life, as a nature, are concerned about. The self we are set to groom.

the ME that you are refering to is merely a factual necessity , the concept of segregation via bodily boundaries , so that one may work efficiently as a unit in the human society. So the attributes you refer to such as "life", "the knowledge" are merely gained and didn't come with us from birth and wont continue after death. So what i am concerned about here is not what the self APPEARS to be but what the self IS.That which trancends birth and death . that which cannot be acquired nor released, that which truly is the substance of "my" existence, the ultimate ME-ness.

Clever opinion leads nowhere.
The way we mold opinions... create them, bake them, alter them, personify them, alienate them. Its all futile. Not a single step nearer to what you call "truth". There is no truth.

"clever opinion leads nowhere", really?if it didn't then it wouldn't justify being clever, now would it?? and by the way, opinions were never meant to know the truth , it's merely a personalized
view, a perception uniquely one's own, though not absolute , does represent a facet of the truth , no matter how convoluted.

and how can you be so sure that there is no truth?? Again , isn't that an opinion?? or am i to ignore it simply?Perhaps it would be better to say "There is no perception of the truth just yet".

How do you know whether truth is a constant or not? What else is constant? Is time constant? Is life constant?
One needn't venture anywhere. One needs to be. To feel. To be!

how could it not be?? How could such universe stand on its own without an order that is fixed and immutable? Now lets expand our horizon here, You ask if time is a constant. Now according to relativity ,passage of time depends upon the observer's frame of reference right??, Now although the time may not be constant in itself, this "nature" of time being relative is itself a constant. Life changes every second, but the "change" is itself a constant. You can't change change.

Well, it seems ultimate knowledge cannot be seeked but only experienced.but that is not to say that one can get high and be enlightened,experience is only meaningful when accompainied by awareness, BEING is only meaningful when accompanied with wisdom.

What ever u stated above seemed to give me just one thing to learn.
There is so much to learn and obviously we even have to learn to filter the right thing to learn. So the question lies what is the parameter to know whatever we are learning is true and worthy. To my view whatever we have viewed and seen will lead us to what we have to do. Evolution and the order are two things which are always dynamic. So everything will change but the frame through which change occur seems to be constant. What is that constant point?

V for Vendetta,

your calling "god" an "ultimate reality" is in itself a naiveness. God is an excuse for your so-called quest of finding out some eternal truth.

1. ME is not a factual necessity. It is reality.

2. You agree that knowledge didn't come with birth and will not continue after death. I would like to unwantingly quote UG Krishnamurthi in this, "Knowledge is your enemy." It leads you nowhere but into the intricacy of questions and quests and the embodiment of ideologies and perceptions and hypotheses.

3. Opinion is a beautiful thing. It is what you can call your own. Opinion is what I am sharing and what you are sharing. Something... Dialectical. That is the even more beautiful. I cannot urge and I don't want to urge you into thinking about truth the way I think of it... And the way I bluff about it... the way you bluff about it.

4. The universe is not fixed. It is as dynamic as can be.
Relativity became a veer in ... everything. It changed everything. Change is the word that best describes truth, time and universe. When time changed from absolute to relative, the world was amazed with the change. When time to you and time to me and time to an astronaut in space doesn't become the same ... loopholes are created in hypotheses and theories we generate. (There is no constant point dear Razor.) There is no center. There is no focus. Change can never be a constant. How can change be a constant. Change signifies anything but a constant. What is not constant, it's change.

Wisdom has nothing to do with being. There are two points of life, (we may never attain) that outdo wisdom and knowledge. Zorba the Greek and The Buddha.

your calling "god" an "ultimate reality" is in itself a naiveness. God is an excuse for your so-called quest of finding out some eternal truth.

when did i ever refer to god as the ultimate reality??I simply mentioned god's name because it was the topic this thread , and further i never really said "god" was the ultimate reality. I simply maintained the argument so as to imply that to discuss things like "god" is to discuss about a reality that we aren't familiar with and that we should try to develop a perspective that goes beyond the ordinary.

1. ME is not a factual necessity. It is reality.

well ,now now, tell me what is this ME that you refer to so vehemently??Is it a name, a status, perhaps the body, thoughts??, but these are merely things , is it the combination of all these, then it's just an organization.How bout a soul? the aatma??Who is it that gets hurt when spoken ill of?? or is there anyone?? other than the feelings itself?? Please elaborate.

2. You agree that knowledge didn't come with birth and will not continue after death. I would like to unwantingly quote UG Krishnamurthi in this, "Knowledge is your enemy." It leads you nowhere but into the intricacy of questions and quests and the embodiment of ideologies and perceptions and hypotheses.

We're not playing the quoting game here,i can ctrl+C entire databases of quotes on the behalf of the contrary. However, understand that these quotes are all relevant and true to certain respects, but not all.Please don't make your stand based upon some dead guy's words. Think for yourself. Think, "Is Knowledge really your enemy?, really??"

3. Opinion is a beautiful thing. It is what you can call your own. Opinion is what I am sharing and what you are sharing. Something... Dialectical. That is the even more beautiful. I cannot urge and I don't want to urge you into thinking about truth the way I think of it... And the way I bluff about it... the way you bluff about it.

sure, opinion is indeed a beautiful thing, but it's temporal,it fades away with the passage of time, with the arrival of hard facts.so we should always be open to new ideas but not so open that our brains fall out.

4. The universe is not fixed. It is as dynamic as can be.
Relativity became a veer in ... everything. It changed everything. Change is the word that best describes truth, time and universe. When time changed from absolute to relative, the world was amazed with the change. When time to you and time to me and time to an astronaut in space doesn't become the same ... loopholes are created in hypotheses and theories we generate. (There is no constant point dear Razor.) There is no center. There is no focus. Change can never be a constant. How can change be a constant. Change signifies anything but a constant. What is not constant, it's change.

you are misunderstanding me. Let me elaborate.
Change doesnot signify a constant, neither is change a constant.but rather the FACT OF THE EXISTENCE of change IS a constant.That is , change has a "nature" to change, and that nature is a constant.just like, the blackness of black may vary in degree, but the black-ness is itself a constant. In calculus, the differentiation of sine gives cosine.Though there's a change from sine to cosine, this FACT that sine CHANGES to cosine is a constant.

Wisdom has nothing to do with being. There are two points of life, (we may never attain) that outdo wisdom and knowledge. Zorba the Greek and The Buddha.

I didn't quite understand what you were trying to say here. and how does these two fit together?